Lisa (00:00.974)
Okay, yes, my name is Sarah and I live just outside of Los Angeles. And so I'm in California, but I'm originally from the great state of Minnesota. So I understand the Canadian cold. Canadian nice because there's Minnesota nice too. And my divorce journey also started approximately three and a half years ago, which is how Lisa and I connected up.
And I was entirely shocked to discover after more than two and a half decades of marriage that my husband had been in a long -term affair for some time and he had done an excellent job of keeping it secret. And then after telling me that he wanted to put the marriage back together, just one day he literally got up and walked out the door, which was fun. The divorce took.
Two and a half years to finish. We just completed it this past August. And almost just shy of our, well, so 32 and a half years marriage total, we were married. And so I knew him for 35 years. And I have three adult children. One still lives with me, but the other two have their own households. They're both my, both my sons are married. My daughter,
is about to graduate college and she's heading off to West Virginia to start her own career. So I'm about to be an empty nester and surprisingly I'm looking forward to it, especially if she takes her cat with her because I'm sick and tired of the cat. And yeah, I'm starting my own life coaching business. I'm going to focus on people who are struggling to take, to decide what their next step is in life and
how to define it and what their next step should be. So there you go, that's me. Sarah is also an author. She wrote several books and children books as well as other genre. So super exciting. And about this new journey you're about to embark on. And yeah, thank you.
Lisa (02:28.302)
So who's next? I guess that'd be me. I am Sean. I live in, KW or Waterloo, Ontario. pretty much been in and around Ontario most of my life. Haven't really gone outside that area. interestingly enough, my journey also started around three years ago. Weird number of threes that's happening. highlights of it.
It basically started in earnest when there was some physical violence in front of our two children, which resulted in kind of me moving out. It had escalated for quite some time into that kind of place. And it was just one of those kind of last straw type deals.
which resulted in me becoming a single dad for three years, two small children, seven and five.
without questions, I don't really know what else to say. Thank you, Sean. And Sean,
In the past three and quite some years, and you've been doing a lot of like, soul searching and also like most of us and also really focusing on yourself and a lot of like wellness practice and getting into right, a lot of like hot yoga. Yeah, yeah. A lot of staff. Thank you. Really focusing on yourself like you lost a lot of weight. Not that it's a little bit personal. I just like put to you, right? So this is really us.
Lisa (04:20.622)
during this journey building ourself, ourself holistically, because it's like our marriage broke down for whatever reason. Like, we can't fix just one side of us. Like it's, you know, physically, mentally, everywhere. So yeah, it's a thank you, Sean. I'm going to ask some question to Sarah and Sean. And if you have any question, jump in. I just want to frame it so we know their story a little bit more.
and, okay, we're going to just wrap your fire. So Sean, you have 90 seconds to answer each question if you want me to frame it. Okay. Ask what was the tough, like hardest part of this whole journey?
Well, that's kind of a loaded question. You got 90 seconds, buddy. You asked me. This is where I was worried, right? I need to come with prepared answers. I consider the hardest pieces to be categories, right? You know, there's the actual separation when that happens. It's a big deal. You know, you lose the big part of your life. I was married for 10 years. You know, it's suddenly there's a big hole there, you know, and figuring out.
how to, how to live, having that sudden break, sudden change was, that was, that was a hard thing, but really, I guess the hard part was finding the right path to walk, you know, the right journey, the right type of healing to work on, to actually bring results, you know, because when, when that kind of stuff happens, you can go in so many different ways, you know, try and fill the hole or how are you going to fill the hole?
what you're going to do with your life, you know, and, and my, my journey led me into some serious emotional and mental health work discovery and that being figuring that out, that that was what needed to be the most important part of my journey. That was the hardest part. Thank you. And I love that, you know, that really shows that you did a lot of hard, Sarah, what about you? I know you have different challenges.
Lisa (06:37.966)
Yeah, I would have to say if I had gave one overall answer, the hardest part was also the thing that was the greatest reward, which was rediscovering who I am. Because when David walked out, we had already come through so many crushing blows together as a couple, including my health challenges. I am a disabled woman.
And, the, him walking out just as I was making headway with my health was the biggest crushing blow of all. the most painful thing that I went through and my entire identity was wrapped around him. And so he took that with him and I, I've, I had nothing left.
I had nothing left at all. I had nothing left financially, a definition of who I was, friends, family was at a great distance. The kids were reeling just as much as I was, feeling like my entire life was one gigantic lie. And the act of even attempting to rediscover who I was,
just taking that first step was incredibly difficult. I, you know, calling my life coach who Lisa knows very well, you know, when I went talking to him, I was essentially hiding under my desk in my office and I, in my, my home office where I write and the very first challenge was just coming up from under my desk and learning how to pay my utility bills. And,
So I had to, I had to reevaluate absolutely every single area of my life. And I had to give myself a patience and a lot of love and forgiveness to take it slow, to take it slow so that I would do it as, as best as I possibly could. Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. That identity wrapping.
Lisa (09:06.318)
us wrapping our identity around our marriage and our partner, I can definitely resonate and many can. It's really rebuilding ourselves. That's the hardest part. And I love you, Cher, you know, the self -love piece, like, you know, taking this low at our own pace, right? Not the societal expectation or anything else. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So during the whole journey, and as a lot of us, our head,
right was in the sand, we're trying to figure things out a lot of the time is like lots of anxiety, lots of fear, understandably, especially when you're married, you know, for depending on the depth of your relationship, whether it's lancer or children together. So when was that turning point you realized, you know, I'll be okay.
Lisa (10:03.95)
I'm telling you how this like. I'm going to I'm going to challenge the I'll start actually. I'm going to challenge me. I'm going to I'm going to challenge that question a little bit. OK. And the reason for that is in the answer. I think it's it's it's a little layered. I'm not sure how to say this right. Well, it's it's more there's no one moment.
of I'm going to be okay. It's like a slow, it's like I've, I've reached a certain place and then now I feel like I'm more okay. And then more time passes. Now I'm more okay. And then it's like, it like layers on top of each other. There's no like singular moment, you know? I love that. Yeah. Maybe I deserve this way. So,
Is there a rough timeline or rough period that you hit that point? Or is it a goes hand in hand with the inner work you were doing?
I think it has a great deal to do with what stressors are impacting you and what kind of successes you've had in the self -work that you do. Because there's the breakup, there's the legal stuff, there's the financial stuff, there's the mental health stuff, there's the - Parenting. Logistics, the parenting. Everything all at once, that's crushing, that's debilitating, right? But -
making slow strides and finally reaching even just a soft resolution and any of them makes the load a little lighter. And I think that makes it your, your, your head be able to say to move towards a place to like, it's, it's like, you only have so much mental energy you can put on any given thing. And when it's spread too thin, then everything, everything is in chaos. Right. So the less, the more energy you have to put.
Lisa (12:13.934)
towards less things, the more okay overall you can feel because it's not as crushing when, you know, lifting three heavy objects is a lot easier than lifting 20, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we can all resonate and especially in our session too is that the mental space is quite limited when our head is focused on the legal staff or parenting figure things out, it's quite draining.
But when we can read that space slowly, it sounds like it's baby steps, right? You're not like arriving at a destination. It's like a constant work of baby steps that more space will be open. Yeah. Thank you. I think there is a point though where it becomes more deliberate. Like for the, for example, I'd say the first year and a half to two years,
All of the challenges I had to face were forced upon me by the situation. And so the first thing I had to learn how to do as far as starting to feel like I was making headway was learn to celebrate those small wins that started off with things that I didn't have a choice. I had to face them. I had to deal with them. I would say though that the past year and a half,
of this three and a half year journey. There was, even though I completely agree with Sean, it is layered, it is step by step. There was a significant change though when I got to a point where I was choosing what challenges I was going to tackle. They were no longer being imposed on me so much, but I was in control.
And a lot of, and it became that more and more of the challenges weren't things that I just had to deal with with the divorce or deal with and communicating with David or anything like that. There would actually be things that, I chose, I chose things such as, joining choir at church. Okay. Cause I still had a fear of even going out in public. So I made that choice to do something to, to.
Lisa (14:38.83)
correct that in myself to change that. Right now I'm learning ASL sign language. Okay, there's no, and even though my grandson does have problem speaking and that's what prompted it, I don't have to do that. I decided to put that challenge on myself. And so there is a point where I took control. I took the control away from him in my life.
And the challenges that I gave myself, not only were they the ones that I prioritized the necessary ones, they were no longer his priorities. They were now in my priority list. But then I added on ones that were strictly for self growth, strictly things that I wanted to do. Yeah. And that, that's hard. Sorry. No, that's it. No, that's, that's, that's great. That's really.
you're turning the focus back on you, right? And really thinking, okay, what do I want? Now what do I want? Right? These are the things that I want to grow and learn. So, and we talked about that too, right? What does focusing on me look like? And that's a journey in the self to figure out. Yeah, absolutely. When a lot of the seemingly the other side has all the control.
So back to that meditation is I have seniority I can choose my space I can choose where I play in that space. I we do have that protection and Ownership right this is us taking responsibility. So thank you. So I have my last question So for anyone who's going through this journey extremely excruciatingly
painful journey. And if you could give a device to people who are in the thick of their divorce proceeding and journey or negotiation, what would that piece of device be?
Lisa (16:51.662)
Sarah, you can start this time so Sean can think about it because I know like I can tell like he's like, I don't ask simple questions. That's okay. The advice I have given people who are in the deepest muck of the muck, deep in the mud of it at the beginning. I remember that when I was there,
I was not even believing that there was a light at the end of that tunnel. I didn't even believe that one existed, much less see it. And so the first thing that I try to tell people is there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Just keep going until you can see it. You're going to see it. And then once you see it, you are going to get there. I mean, I...
I have never been in the bottom of a pit so deep as when he walked out the door. I had, I mean, I had, what was left of my life was ripped away from me. I had nothing. Lisa knows this very well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fact that how you faced all this Sarah, it's just so much strength. A lot of people would be crushed or just like,
Light on. I was crushed. And I'll go ahead and say it. I didn't want to live. I did not want to live. But it was just somewhere, something inside of me said, somewhere's the, there's a tunnel. You're in a tunnel and somewhere there's a light. You're just way too far away to see it, but it does exist. It does exist. And I just, I just kept.
I just kept telling myself, just keep taking a step forward, just keep taking a step forward, just keep taking a step. And sure enough, it was a teeny tiny little pinpoint of a light finally showed itself. And I just kept making my way closer to it. Every time I had to read a legal document, every time I had to email my husband still at the time, now my ex, every time I had to have a conversation with one of the kids, I just, and every time, every time I even went outside to take a walk.
Lisa (19:16.302)
with my earbuds in, listening to a podcast, taking a drink of water as bizarre as, as simple as that sounds, just taking a drink of water. I chose to look at everything in my life, is this helping me? And if it was helping me, it was a step forward. And if it was a step forward, it was a win.
And I just kept doing it, kept doing that until the light was big and bright. And now I'm out of it. I'm not even in the tongue. Yeah. I was also going to mention Sarah for your case, there is also the complexity of, the religious, background, right? What you believed in and, and the, the, the challenge in that front as well. So, anyway, I just want to bring that.
It's like different layers of the lens of the marriage, your situation, some level of disability and then the shock, but also the religious and yeah, it's a lot of challenges wrapped around it. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for sharing is that there is the light at the end of the tunnel for sure. Yeah. And Sean, do you want to share?
Yeah.
Lisa (20:51.022)
I think my answer has to be that, and you said in the thick of it, right? Yeah. I think my answer has to be that it's okay to just survive.
Your body knows how to cope. Your body knows how to survive. If you just let it right now, that's all that matters. Surviving, getting over the hump. It's okay. It doesn't everybody has everybody, especially in the thick of it's going to have coping mechanisms that may not be the absolute best. That's a goal for after the hump, you know, converting your coping mechanisms into stuff that.
is nurturing and is good for self care. Whatever you've got right now, you use, you use to survive. Let it, let the coping mechanisms that your body knows that actually work for you, let them work for you right now until the time comes that that can be something that you can work on later.
Thank you. I love that. Survive first. Let's work on thriving. Yeah, after certain period of time. Thank you. That's so thoughtful and definitely like speak from experience I can tell. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. And yeah, it's a hard journey. It's a hard...
So thank you. When the other party like, it's not engaging in any type of form of healthy communication. When you have two little children, you have to, really co -parent under that circumstances, like what device was suggesting, or how did you, how did you overcome those? So I'd like to wrap your question into also all the stuff that, that Sarah was saying as well, cause they're, they're kind of hand in hand.
Lisa (22:51.054)
I agree for the most part, kind of what was being said. And I want to reiterate going into the whole giant monster that is redefining yourself is not something that's, that's an after, that's an after thing. Right. If anything right now, it would just be learning to listen to yourself. That's it. Right. I have, I have a extensive history with a non -compliant, non -communicative, very controlling, partner.
and during the, the, the parenting process. And one thing that I found, and it's probably been the most fundamentally important discovery I made over my, my time with my children was when I realized how much of my mental energy I was giving to their mother when I was with them. I mentioned several times that it feels rushed and it feels not enough.
Right. I, I, I felt these things as well. And one thing that I realized that I was doing too much is I was giving too much of my mental energy, too much of my head space away from my children when my children were present. And it was resulting in too much kind of lack of, of being present too much lack of energy led to me being very exhausted, led to me constantly being with them, but not.
you know, fully with them, if that makes sense, being just frustrated knowing that all of those issues that I was having with their mother was present with them in the room, even though their mother wasn't there. You know, I spent a lot of time working on obtaining the ability to...
It's not going to go away, right? But that mental energy belongs present towards the children when they're in the room. When they're gone, yeah, you know, it'll all come back. You know, problems are still going to be there, right? But being able to give all of yourself in the present moment with your children, when they're there, that has had the biggest impact for me in the time I've had with my children. I know some of my clients will ask,
Lisa (25:12.43)
How can I be an engaged father when I only have 10 hours a week with my daughter? Is this how it's going to be? No. This is not how it's always going to be. As she grows up, she's going to have her own thoughts and feelings and she's going to have more and more and more of a voice of how this is all handled. And so even though this all feels like it's in the right now, it's not.
There's things change, feelings change, people's attitudes change, situations, circumstances all change. And so as far as your being a father, you're a father 100 % of the time now, whether she's with you or not. And so to start to rebuild yourself, even though I already said that's a huge concept that's you're not there.
because you have all of these things that you are in the immediate, you must deal with. At the same time, what you do when she's not with you is just as important as when she is with you. What are you doing to strengthen yourself mentally and emotionally? What are you doing to learn about what you can control and what you cannot control?
What are you doing to, so your lawyer can represent you and you can put that on your lawyer's shoulders and not have that on your shoulders to remove as much stress as you can from yourself while still keeping tabs on everything. What can you do to continue to grow and strengthen as a man?
so that your daughter doesn't feel like you just put on the father robe when she came in the door.
Lisa (27:07.246)
She knows that you're there, whether she's there or not.
that's why I said the atmosphere in my home was under my control. And that started with who I was inside, not the circumstances because my husband was, even though our kids were adults, he was not saying nice things about me to them, but they knew from their own experiences for me, what was true and what wasn't. I didn't have to tell them.
I didn't have to say anything to them. They just knew me.
They knew who I was. And so...
Again, just come back. I suggest come back into yourself. Whatever the circumstances are, no matter how horrible they are, this is not where your life is going to settle in.
Lisa (28:06.638)
It's not. And that was a huge, I'm saying this as somebody who, I was so ill. I was so physically, mentally, emotionally ill that literally my friends who knew me three and a half years ago that I run into now, they don't recognize me. I have to go up to people and say, you don't know who I am?
Because I've changed so much over these last three and a half years because I just work so hard on what I could work on. And I learned to just let things be on what I could not work on. I just accepted. I just, when things were bad, what was bad was going to be bad. And what was good was going to be good was going to be coming from me.
Lisa (29:06.446)
See, this is gonna be as rough as this Christmas is for you right now. Next Christmas might be better. And the next Christmas after that might be better yet.
and three Christmases, four Christmases from now might be fantastic.
because of what you do today.
Lisa (29:39.375)
I just, the one thing I had to remind myself all the time is that how it is right now is not how it's going to be. Things don't stay stagnant. Things change. Start basic. Start basic. I think Sarah's sharing one thing that I, I, I know you're in deep thought when she said this is that the other party probably said,
Tremendously amount of whatever they wanted to say, right? Negative likely in this situation. I know it's I know we should, you know, in our conversation that it's the case in your in your scenario as well. And. But when the kids right and she talked about how she managed and really focused on the atmosphere she can create with her kids and they're all adults now, they're all adults.
Right. And from their own experience and they know the truth. Right. So I know that, you know, there is a lot of concern about you, like how confusing it is for your daughter because she's so young, but even at that young age, she knows. And we can't take light of that because it's so important. And.
more so that the work we do on ourselves, right? When we are not with our children and because it comes through, right? And this is us create that whole experience for them, but also for ourselves. So I just want to really point that out because I know there's a similar experience you're experiencing now. And.
So yeah, I thank you, Sarah. That was beautiful. And Sean, I know and I'm coming to you because I know in this whole experience, regardless which side we are, where we are, I know men and women are a little bit different. So I just really want to hear your thoughts and your experience and.
Lisa (31:59.278)
Lisa (32:03.79)
I think, I think one last point on the, the, the kids thing actually is the fact of the matter, especially with young kids. it becomes, it becomes the long game, you know, like the, it's not about, it's not just about who you're modeling for them. It's about how you're modeling a family to them, especially now that you're not like one full family under one roof. Right.
So what I mean is it doesn't matter how I, how I'm feeling about their mother's attitude or how frustrated or angry over her behavior. I still protect the position of mother in their eyes, no matter, no matter what. Right. I don't let them say, say anything ill of their mother. I don't, I don't speak about their mother in a negative way. I've, I've, I've grown to use.
the term like, if you have this kind of issue, then you need to talk to mommy, daddy, you know, like I, I keep us as one singular unit for them because the idea of, of parenthood should be separate from the conflict I have with their mother. You know, those are two completely separate things. and that's me playing the long game, right? It's, it's, it doesn't matter what season of conflict I'm in with their mother. It matters to me how I want to model.
how to think of your own family to them. And from the male experience, I think it just, the fundamental difference between, in my opinion, and I can easily be wrong, this is this tricky business, between men and women is men are masters of numbness. We spend our entire lives mastering the ability to numb out everything.
much, much, much more from a very early age. So we can, we can snap that door shut at any moment and shut everything out. Right. The problem with that is we're shutting out what's actually happening to us. So this constant feeling that you may or may not recognize of constant tiredness, constant exhaustion of the situation that's going on.
Lisa (34:31.662)
Even even just when you're alone, just be completely exhausted and not really understanding why. Why am I always exhausted? Why don't I have the energy? Where is this energy? Right? When you shut the door on your emotions, you're not shutting the door on the damage. You're not shutting the door on these problems. You're shutting the door on letting your heart tell your head what's happening to it. The damage is still happening to your body. You are still.
experiencing all this pain, you're just numbing out the pain that's still going to exhaust your body. So this, this fact that we men are so good at numbing everything out works so terribly against us, especially in our adult lives, because in, in around adolescence around adulthood is when it really becomes a big, big problem because we get so tired and we don't understand why. Right.
But you can't just open the door, right? Because we spent our entire lives numbing it out. You open the door, we'll be crushed by everything that we've shut away. So what's the answer? What do we do? That's the little work that we're talking about. That's that how to eat an elephant. That's the tiny pieces. You can't just open the door anymore. We've screwed ourselves over without even wanting to in our adulthood. We can't just open the door anymore.
So we have to find a way to slowly open the door and that's the self work. That's the rebuilding. That's the redefining. It's a very long and slow process and you have to find a piece, any piece to just pick it. It can be the smallest piece ever, but you need to slowly move towards not numbing, choosing not to numb in a way that won't destroy you in a way that won't kill you because there are moments and everybody has those moments where you feel it.
You can feel it that if you don't numb it right away that you feel like you might even die, but it's so deep. It's so powerful. It's just being crushed by an ocean of heaviness. And those are the moments. Yeah, absolutely. You snap that door shut and become super numb. That's the thing that's making you unable to just open the door fully. And that's the work. That's the progress on the other side. The years later, the healing, you don't have to shut the door anymore.
Lisa (36:54.062)
You don't have to numb down. You can celebrate not numbing. You can celebrate having access to all these things that are causing you this exhaustion, all these things that are causing you this pain. That's the mental work that's in front of you, but it's so worth it. It's so worth it because when you can finally do it, all that heaviness, all that baggage that you carry that you may not even know you have, not only can you see it, you can finally put it down.
You can wake up in the morning and not be completely exhausted. You can walk out in the day and actually enjoy being outside. You can have enough mental focus and mental presence to enjoy the beauty of nature. Did you just be outside? I've never done that before. All the consequence of being masters of numbness, of being a man, an adult that hasn't done the work. It's crushing and it will destroy you, especially in this progress.
process if you don't start taking tiny little pieces. And the only work, the only work you have to do is find one small thing, one small thing. What can I do? Anything. It doesn't have to be big, just something. Get the ball rolling and let the ball get bigger and bigger. And I would like to please add journal, keep notes, because it's going to be an incredible process.
incredibly slow process and there are going to be times when you're going to feel like I'm not making any progress. But if you've kept notes, you can look back periodically and go, wait, I did make progress. I did grow. And then that will keep that will actually create momentum. And after a long time, it'll happen where you'll actually your growth will happen faster. But it's got to happen when it's ready. You can't you can't push it. You can't force it.
Lisa (38:54.03)
Thank you for sharing Sean. And I'm just going to let that message sink a little bit. I know it's a lot. I think Sean was also speaking not only to Shadi, but also to all the men out there. And as he speak, I was like, okay, I really need to take notes, right, to think about my song, because our society really...
cultivates that environment for men to fulfill this provider role, right? And so a lot of times we have to just pick things up and do things and, you know, and not really pay attention to our emotions or well -being. So, and I was also thinking, Sean, can you call my ex? That's what he needs to hear. Now, joking aside,
Thank you so much for sharing. I think that comes with a lot of humility and self -onest. So I wonder, so specifically in communication, when the other party is not engaging at all or...
Every time you communicate, you feel like there is this contention or a potential conflict. Like this is part of the toughest part when seemingly like both sides should be on the same page, you know, especially when parenting are involved. Right. We're not. When it comes to whether there is a wall or there is just a lot of anger, like,
where we cannot pinpoint like, damn it, why are you angry at me? Or for what reason? Do you have any suggestion there, especially in the, when you were in the thick of the legal process? Like how, how did you come about that? Like, how did you deal with the situation when your ex is, is in high conflict and with a lot of anger?
Lisa (41:14.206)
Yeah. Question for me. Sure. Shawn, you start. I mean, you know, if you don't mind, you can start Shawn. I want like you can even give them if you don't mind, like like how the situation is for you. You're not dealing with some simple situation here. I know you're talking a lot about a lot of big picture. It's difficult, right? Even even when you are in a cadence.
regular cadence of parenting or time already. And it's, it continues to, it doesn't mean that the challenge goes away right away in terms of communicating with the other side. And what, what, yeah. What, what, how did you find peace in, in, in that front on that front? I would say it comes back to kind of the, the idea of control and the idea of headspace. The, you never, you can never control the people.
You can't control what they do. You can't shame people. You can't argue with them. You can't harass them. You can't anything. You can't control the people. All you can control is yourself. And the fact of the matter is, is people are going to do what they're going to do. They might be spiteful. They might be manipulative. They might go out of the way and try and hurt you. You might feel like they are. It doesn't matter. It ultimately does not matter what their intentions are. It doesn't matter what their actions are because again, you can't control it. You just can't. Right.
The only thing you can control is yourself. The way not only you choose to act, but also the way you choose to think about your actions and others actions. Right? Bottom line, if they don't want to speak, they don't want to communicate, can't make them. You know, the only thing you can do is make the best choice within the realm of the options that you have. The realm of control that you have, which is only, which is really only you. I don't...
I'm in a position where I'm in a complete zero contact state with them. They refuse to talk to me and I can't have a single conversation with them without it devolving into some sort of argument. So the place I've come to, it's not necessarily going to be the same as yours, obviously, but the place I've come to is I've done work. I've released a lot of this, this, these baggage that I have, but they may not have.
Lisa (43:40.27)
And however true that is, I've chosen to decide that if I let time pass, that that's what's going to be necessary for anything other than what's happening now into the future. The only thing I can control is me. The only thing I can control is my mental health and my wellbeing. And the only way that I can...
make sure that I'm being taken care of is to not be trying to fight for some change, not trying to be frustrated over the current circumstances to minimize their, their residents in my own head, to give them less space, less of my time, less of my day, less of my world. The only place that they have that she has in my world right now.
Is that times where I don't have a choice, right? Every other time she doesn't get a place in my head. She doesn't get a place in my day. I put that mental energy everywhere else. And if one point in the future that ever changes, absolutely. I'm down to, to give some mental energy again, to see, explore those opportunities, to explore the compromise, to explore, do, can we find common ground this time? But in the meantime, I can't do anything about it. So.
The only person who's losing is me. If I try and do anything about it, right. That's mental energy. I can put it to myself, into my own healing, into my own journey. Why would I waste it? And when the only cost is towards me.
Lisa (45:26.51)
Yeah. And I just want to summarize that's really ultimately, yeah, the last part you said, right? If this hurts me, why am I doing this? Right? Why? And back to that meditation we did that we have the choice to choose our space and where we spend our time and energy. And that doesn't come easy. That comes into small steps of like your conscious, you catch yourself like, wait a minute.
Why am I so worked up by that email? Right? Create some space. I don't have to respond today.
give ourselves that love and attention and just that awareness, right? We talk about the REM method, right? It's like, right, right, recognize, right? And then acknowledge, right? Investigate while I feel that way. And then nurture that part. It's like nurturing ourselves at all in the world, our mental space, our emotions. So really comes back to that small steps. And it's like muscle, right?
the more we practice, the more weights we lift, we get better, we get better, we get better. We get, we give less and less space to them. And then bam, out of sudden, damn, I have so much space. I can do coaching. I can do another course. I can take my kids, you know, on a trip and not thinking about, I wish that person is here. So we're an intact family, you know, that kind of wish. So.
I just want to yeah, thank you, Sean. And I know Sarah, you have lots to share and you were like nodding. I was concurring so much. It was like, yep, that's right. Exactly. I will add that. I mean, Lisa, you know how it was for me. You know, for the first few months, I was practically desperate for any communication with him.
Lisa (47:32.334)
It was practically like a drug hit. It was bad. And then there was an extensive period of time of no contact as he demanded, not me. He demanded no contact. And I was very upset about that. That ended up being an unexpected blessing for me. That period of no contact that he forced on me was actually a time of the greatest
jumps in my healing. Then when he started initiating contact again, I had rules for it that I worked with with the coach that Lisa and I both know. I worked with him on what those rules were for communicating and they were I only responded or I only initiated or responded communication.
if necessary. If it was not necessary, I didn't do it. I did not ignore him. If he did initiate or if there was something that needed to be communicated, I did it. But only if necessary. And then when I did, I was short, to the point, did not elaborate, left emotion out of it.
completely very professional business attitude with it and let's just get it done and out of the way. Or as we would say, strong, calm and gentle. And boundaries, I kept as tight as I could boundaries around myself and those boundaries thankfully got stronger and stronger as time went by. And now...
we're to a point that he's still very uncomfortable, uncomfortable being around me. I'm completely comfortable being around him. this time period of difficult communication, if you can, create good boundaries around yourself for exactly the reasons Sean said this was for what he could control his own head space. Same with me. I was controlling.
Lisa (49:55.086)
what I could control, which was myself. I'm right. What Sean and Sarah said is like, ultimately, I mean, it's hard because every time when I'm in a session with my therapist or everything, just even now, talking about, you know, relationships with everyone around me, it comes back like, damn it, it's me I have to work on. Like, because, what else? Like,
There is no option, right? Like I get angry. It's like, damn, it's not the other person. It's me. I have to like, maybe, you know, the other person have all the issues in the world. They do. Right. And we can see it. And even my therapist will say, my God, but ultimately comes back to us. So, thank you so much, Sarah and Sean. it's, it's so beautiful. And, I'm so thankful for your time.
and you're so like your candor and we went really deep. I was like, damn, like so good. I'm gonna cut like this. I don't know, a snapshot of this is so beautiful. Thank you. I know it's never easy to share and I'm just like super, super grateful for you to join us and yeah.