Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (00:00)
five years ago, my ex and I went to Costa Rica to check things out. We actually hired a real estate agent to tour us around. At the time, I had the vision in my mind that maybe in a couple of years, we can work remotely. We both had good jobs. And then we had a small real estate business, which brings us some passive income. So it was my vision to...
be away from Canada maybe some time and to explore different cultures. And shortly after that, I was pregnant with our second child. I said, wait, great, this is perfect. Going on that path, little did I know that that was not his vision. So COVID hit and he told me that I don't want it to be married with you anymore. So, and then.
I came about this divorce journey, searching myself again and this vision. So this past four to five years is me rediscovering myself and looking at my vision. But the realization is that, my God, how could I assume my vision of our family is also his vision? And how not check in with each other?
during our more than 10 years marriage and just assume that we get along plan. So that's why today we are here talking about leading our most important team, our family with my coach Dave and his wife, Dr. Jen And I really wanna talk about how to cultivate and sustain.
the intimate long -term relationship with our partner. That's where Dave said then you have to bring Jen as well. So that's why we're here.
Dave Inglis (01:47)
Yeah, it's not a conversation that I should just be having. Yeah, it takes two to tango on that. There's two sides to that, for sure.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (01:48)
You
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (01:55)
Yeah, absolutely. And when I got into coaching and knowing that I need to restart getting clear on my vision as a single mom with full custody with two kids in the corporate job and exploring a business, I knew I needed help from an amazing coach who knows cultivating excellence both on the intersection of personal and professional life. And that's why I reached out to Dave.
a little bit of background for those who you don't know, Dave is the author of Chief Family Officer and CEO of Threshold Leadership. And he is a Business and Family Leadership Coach. And a lot of people know and refer to him as the corporate therapist, which I thought, what a great way to summarize your role. And he's sought after for his expertise in strategy, communications, and
managing high -stake relationships. And we also have Dr. Jen and Dr. Jen is a naturopathic doctor. And that's a lot of people know her with a primary focus in pediatric mental health. She's also the founder and CEO of the Umbrella Project, a positive coping curriculum used internationally by thousands of parents, students, and educators. She's also an author.
of the book, The Umbrella Effect. So I actually attend Dr. Jiang your webinar about ADHD because my son was a through the diagnosis, which was super helpful. A good reminder for me that there's nothing wrong with our kids, but how we approach parenting. So thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (03:48)
Thank you for having me. Yeah, this is exciting.
Dave Inglis (03:50)
treat. We don't often get to do this, Jen, aside from you and I sharing our different perspectives, maybe over a glass of wine with some friends. So when Lisa had suggested the idea of doing a podcast and given her interest rather just around these topics, I thought it'd be really a wholesome conversation if you were here a part of it. So thanks for being game for that too, Jen.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (03:51)
Awesome.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (03:55)
That's true.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (04:14)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (04:16)
well, I'm happy to be here and, I'm excited to talk about this topic because it's, very near and dear to my heart for sure.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (04:23)
I feel like this today is a 360 degree review for Dave and to check if he is walking the talk here. And it's so funny. Yeah, I told Dave, like, I know how to open the podcast and then, you know, life brings us. So we actually had a glitch of technology and which firsthand I saw how you two interact in a timely
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (04:33)
Yes.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (04:51)
situation. I was like, my God, how great we could see that in real life. in the book you talked about a specific scene that jumped out for me is that Jen was on mat leave with William and you were working and you came home and saw the mess so to speak.
and you were impatient. And then Jen, I think, put a sticker note and reminded you, it's not what you look at matters, it's what you see. And that's four years ago, because I know William is almost the same age as the COVID baby too, similar as my daughter. And then I think about a month ago, we were on a coaching call at lunchtime.
I need to stop because Jen is passing by and she's waving at me and blowing kisses at me. And then you stepped away, turned off the camera. And then I don't know how long later you came back and you're like, it's good. So I don't know. It's that, what happened there because the camera was off. I just want to ask you, tell us this journey.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (05:51)
Yeah.
Hehehe.
Dave Inglis (06:25)
Hehehehe
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (06:03)
Yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (06:07)
Because I think a lot of people when they have kids they can relate, right? Like we have man bread and there is some expectation of what our partner should be doing taking care of the kids at home and that some and frustration to here today four years later and I can feel the love and energy even from off screen. So tell us about that journey.
Dave Inglis (06:35)
Jen, where do you want to start on that one? I mean, I think as you talk about a journey, I almost feel like I would respectfully like want to reframe it as a practice because I think it's something that we continue to have to go back to. time were transitioning into a very different stage of our life where we were resetting our roles in the home in the way that we each contributed as a result of Will coming into our lives.
resetting our roles now as we go into another really interesting transition. You know this firsthand, Lisa, we're moving to Spain in the fall and we now are living with Jen's mom, my mother -in -law, Brenda, which is amazing and a great gift for the summer and a new environment, which just means that there is so much exposure to doing things that go unnoticed.
and for that sense of, contemptment to be, to come to life. I think in any relationship, when you go through those types of transitions, because fundamentally the way you used to get appreciated or contribute is no longer perhaps the way that's required or needed, or maybe the circumstances where it can be recognized or you feel appreciated might change too. So I think, it really is a practice for us, but one that I think for Jen and I,
know, honey, we've done a really good job, I would say always evaluating our experience together. And as we go through those transitionary periods, I think by evaluating them, not just from, you know, like, did we get all the things done, but more like, what are we learning about you and me and us and our family through these difficult moments? It allows us to continue to get better and better and kind of build some momentum in that direction. Wouldn't you agree, Jenny? Like we've often laughed and said,
Are we living one year repeated 10 times or 10 great years? And I think evaluating that experience is so important for us to continue to move in the right direction.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (08:28)
Yeah, and I think actually it's really interesting that you bring that up because I think in that time, which I would say was probably the most difficult time of our marriage, as many difficult times are, it wasn't just having Will, there were a lot of things a on at that time. They were kind of piling up, you know, just one challenge after another, after another. And we weren't doing the check -in practices and the re -centering with each other that we usually were doing. And it became
a real relationship breaker for us, I think. Like it was almost, like not doing that practice that was so familiar to us is I think at the crux of why that time was so hard for us is just we weren't checking back the way we needed to be. And then I really feel like that is something that's changed. So, you know, now we're living with my mom for a couple of months and lots of added stresses and changes and things.
to navigate, but now I can really feel how on top of those check -ins we are and how on top of thinking up and talking about it. So everything feels so much more manageable. We can roll with it. We still, feel a lot of connection, I think. That's how I feel about it. But that time particularly, and I think it happens in a lot of relationships where time starts to be really difficult to find. the more stressed out you are, the less you feel like sitting down.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (09:34)
you
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (09:48)
with your partner and rethinking and talking about what's a on or you're having the same conversation over and over again. It's like banging your head against the wall, you know? But you're not doing that high level regroup. so I think that was really a huge part of what that stress ultimately was for us at that time. But yeah, where we got back on track too.
Dave Inglis (10:08)
like with things being so busy, if I think back to that moment, and even today with working through some of the challenges that we will always have, albeit they evolve, it's so much easier for me just to go out and play in the pool as well than to sit down and have to talk about the stuff that we haven't had time to talk about. It's so much easier to go and kick a ball out front with Kalem and Quinn instead of sitting down and talking about all the shit that we...
don't want to talk about, especially at the end of a day like that, right? So I think one thing that we've done really well is we've started to have those conversations at different times in the day, earlier in the day, when we have more capacity for them, or we've built in some mechanisms in our family that create those conversations, not when they are happening, right?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (10:39)
yet.
Dave Inglis (10:56)
in my book I say don't work on the plumbing when it's raining and I think we're continuing to get better and better about finding opportunities to talk about those things when we actually have the capacity and it's not happening kind of in the moment.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (11:06)
Yeah. And if we're being transparent here, at least I know you want a 360 on Dave's. Working on the plumbing when it's raining is not your strongest skill. You are a guy who needs to reflect. we've had many an argument where I'm like, what are you talking about? It doesn't even make any sense anymore. But then as soon as you get some space to think about it, you always come back with a very, not just a resolution, but a level up on what the conflict was more than I could ever hope to hear.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (11:26)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (11:35)
about what you had reflected on, but you are not a good plumber when it is raining. Do not call. do not those, those conversations are not your, your strength, right? You, you need that period of reflection. You need to come back and have those conversations later.
Dave Inglis (11:38)
Yeah!
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (11:39)
not call him when my basement is flooded.
Dave Inglis (11:51)
Yeah, and I right there is a good example of you integrating the ongoing understanding that you're continuing to build about me into the way that you interface with our family system and create the environment where healthy repair can happen. Because as good as your intentions have been in the early parts of our relationship, when that rupture would happen and the pipes would blow for whatever reason,
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (12:07)
Mm -hmm.
Dave Inglis (12:18)
Right. You and I are very different. I'm more like, give me my space. And you're definitely more like, no, no, no. Like, can we figure this out now? I just want to have assurance on things. Right. And we both have the similar intention of we want to do the thing that we feel is most appropriate for us in that moment. And I think what we've learned is what that looks like for each other. And then how do we start to do what's right for the relationship, not just us and what we kind of want to have next.
I think your ability to spot even in recent years of like when the pipes have burst, you've just learned that like, it's great to get me engaged in that process, but just not when the water's flying, right. And learning to kind of wait for the, the tank to run dry, if you will. And I've had to learn how to do that in a respectful way too, right. Where it's not just stomping around in the water and leaving and walking out. That's not what's happening, but I think that's just a great reflection of.
how evaluating our experience together and what we're learning about us and not just the actual event that took place, but how we relate through those has been really critical to that. And I think it's critical to a lot of folks who get better at the repair process. Cause like you said, yeah, I'm pretty good at the disruption piece, right? And the blowout piece. And I think that's not what we actually want to have less of. Well, I think over time that goes down, really it's starting to strengthen up and build the capacity for
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (13:35)
Yeah.
Dave Inglis (13:43)
more thoughtful repair like you alluded to.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (13:45)
Mmm, I love that.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (13:47)
Yeah, I think something I've really seen and learned along the way is that if you really are evaluating your experience, I've spent 10 years now evaluating conflict with Dave and how that goes, if you really take the time to pay attention to the experience, I can now feel much less anxious in those moments when we have an acute conflict. I used to,
Dave Inglis (13:48)
Thank you.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (14:15)
as we all are responding to our own emotional experience in those moments, I would seek Dave to resolve the conflict very quickly because I was anxious, you know, and I wanted everything to be better. And now it's so much easier for me to walk away and, you know, go on with my day and not feel that same anxiety because I know and I trust Dave, I've evaluated long enough in him that he will come back and resolve the conflict or he will.
take the time to think about it, right? And then come back with some wisdom or some thoughtfulness on his part. So I think that's another big part of evaluating your experience too is being able to reduce some of the stress that you live day to day with or your pre -existing patterns from other people. I'm sure, Lisa you can probably speak to some of the pre -patterns you have now in relationship because of the experience with your ex.
it's so easy to just drag those along to the next instead of really evaluating, yeah, yeah, instead of taking the time to be thoughtful about the new experience you're having with somebody different and build the trust.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (15:14)
yeah. Carry your luggage into the new relationship. Yeah.
Yeah, I love this so much. And one thing is that at work, right, every year we do an annual review and in some companies that we do a quarterly review evaluation and we never do that in our relationship and just assume, it's just the same. It's it will go well. And as you were talking about this experience from five, four or five years ago to now, I can feel how calm and you feel. And also
As you were talking, I can sense this, because Dave, we talked about, I am similar to Jen. When we are disconnected or in an intimate relationship or a conflict, I want to seek, right? I'm that wave. are most gentleman. are more like island. I want to just shut down, take my time. The more my partner does that, the more seeking I wanted to do, and the more anxious I get.
Dave Inglis (16:05)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (16:21)
But just knowing that at that moment for me is that I'm disconnected in this seeking action in action of seeking. What needs to happen for me is actually not connecting with my partner, but connecting with myself. And then I can come, come back, but also evaluating history. Okay. Did he come back to understand that? maybe he just needed a little bit of time rather than with my ex. I would be like, talk to me.
Talk to me, talk to me. what a terrible way to... Yeah, yeah, because he's disengaging. He was disengaging. So this is also a great segue to talk about conflict - repair. What I understand as I explore a little bit, post divorce and dating is that it's not that the couple don't fight, it's how we come back to...
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (16:55)
Because you had to, right?
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (17:17)
the fight that matters. I what's the mechanism what you learned? And how does that piece evolved in your 10 year relationship, repairing conflict. even just now before we started the podcast, we had a little bit like a snippet of that because Jen's technology wasn't
working and it took us some time to get it working. Dave went to help and I sense that the energy is shifting a little bit. So tell us about that piece.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (17:48)
I would say from that experience specifically, and then I'll let Dave, you talk to your experience in that moment too. The biggest shift in me over the last 10 years or so is not feeling like I need to fix Dave's irritability with me that my technology is not working. Like it's no secret. I mean, I'm 13 years older than him puts me in a demographic that if something goes wrong with my technology.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (18:08)
that.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (18:14)
I'm probably a to be able to fix it, but it's a to take me 20 minutes and the podcast is starting in one minute. So Dave clearly is irritated with that, which is his experience. before previous Jen would really feel like I just needed to fix that or apologize or get all flustered. And current Jen just feels like, okay, you're, you're irritable. we can just move through that. We don't need to.
There's not much I can fix there, nor do I need to, nor is it a real problem that you're irritated with me. It's fine, you know? but I think that comes from the amount of time that Dave and I spend reconnecting with each other, the amount of time we spend having, family meetings where we just sit down and openly talk about like, hey, what's working for you? How are you feeling overall? So that I know that irritability isn't a sign of something else deeper.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (19:07)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (19:07)
that's wrong or, contempt building up or something like that. I feel like those, those kind of base camp style check -ins that we do often, and we'll usually go to like a nice restaurant and have a glass of wine and just check in and stuff comes up there. But I know that it's been, it's clearing along the way. There's not all this stuff in this space where Dave's, reaction of irritability now feels like is something really wrong? do I not know what's a on? Is this a bigger thing?
So I feel like for me, that is the biggest change is not that we're all roses all the time. I mean, he didn't come up with a glass of wine and like, no problem, honey, let me fix this for you. You know, he was like, what the heck? Why didn't you do this 20 minutes ago? Right? Like, what, what are you thinking? You think you can fix this in a minute now? Right? Like, and that's, that's okay though. Like that seems like the right reaction and I can just let him have that. So that's sort of where I'm at. I don't know, Dave, what do you think?
Dave Inglis (19:50)
Thank you.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (20:02)
love it so much and before Dave you jump in is that this lesson I'm learning too is that it's not personal. I'm not taking it personally. It's not about me. His irritability is about him and it's on him and I do not need to fix that. my God, the desire to fix things is real. So real.
And then we kind of move ourselves away from the situation a little bit, detaching a little bit, and then we can gain space. It's like, OK, it's not a big deal. he can work through that. It's also your trust of him working through his inner experience. I love it so much, Dave.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (20:25)
Yep.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dave Inglis (20:44)
Yeah, I'd say just wanting to add a gems piece, I think like what I was gonna actually ask, like, how do you think you've got there? But you I think spoke to that quite well, Jen. One thing that I have experienced over the last few years with you is more active attempts to make sure you understand what I am frustrated about.
without trying to, if I think back into the early stages of our relationship.
I think a lot of times what would happen is, is I would get frustrated on something and then what would begin to take place is a series of compensatory behaviors from you to try and get in front of anything else that's a to make me even more irritated, which now starts to like take away from all the things that you're doing. But it was very much like, how would I say it? Well, you were taking side streets and like a down in the shadows to try and clean things up.
in order to create an environment where you think by doing that, I would be able to settle down, not be bothered, and hopefully resolve this as quick as possible. well, now I think you're in a spot where there's just a lot of trust in knowing that allows us to have interactions like we did moments ago in a way where it's just clean and as simple as it is, and we can kind of move on right away. There was an intermediate, I think, phase where I noticed a lot of times you checking in, like, am I getting this right? Is that what's bugging you? Okay, cool.
but you actually double checking and just directly addressing it instead of trying to do things to hopefully reduce the risk of that getting worse. Does that make sense? So I think there was like a whole progression there that was really, really helpful. I think one of the things that has helped me a lot in the way that we deal with conflict together is understanding the difference between when Jen and I are in conflict between each other and when we are dealing with a third.
and how you and I repair conflict between you and I when we disagree on something between us or how we treated each other or what had taken place. There's a big difference between that and then also realizing that we can become skilled at how we work together in dealing with a third. A third could be one of our kids, a third can be one of our parents, a third can be a challenging neighbor or thing that's happening in our community. And I think
we're getting better at dealing with thirds and treating how we deal with those in a different way compared to how we deal with shit that we have a on between us anyway. Right. And like to me, that's a different skill. And to realize like, wow, like even when back during COVID, like you said, we had Will but it was a bunch of other things that were a on in our family too, where many of them I would describe as a third person or a third thing that we both really care about was struggling or a through something.
And we had to find a way to work together and use our system to try and, you know, collectively improve the thing that we had cared about. And that's just different than how we fight together. Right. It's a very different context. And I think the time that we've spent understanding the difference between those two have really helped us, I think, come to the moment with the right intentions and the right context of like knowing that that's what we're actually up against instead of just unconsciously.
sharing our own perspectives and fighting back and forth on it, right?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (23:58)
Yeah, it feels so nice to have somebody on your team. And I think that's essentially what, when you think about the world like that, it's like, hey, we're on the same team here trying to deal with this. You might think I'm defending or you're doing this, but actually what we're both trying to do is come to, something together to help whatever this piece is or cope with this. So it is a nice moment to remember that you're on the same, same team. It comes up a lot actually with
Dave Inglis (24:01)
Yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (24:06)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (24:24)
with teenagers too and parents where sometimes it can feel like parent versus teen instead of like parent and teen versus the fact that you're really irritable. Like it's us versus your irritability. Do you know what I mean? And like trying to even like be on the same team to deal with the thing or like you're not very good at controlling your anger. That can be a third, right? The quality that you're both working on doesn't have to be me versus you. It can be like.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (24:30)
Hmm.
Ha ha ha.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (24:52)
hey, you and I are working together on the fact that you're a really irritable teenager and you snap every time. So we can strategize together about that thing. And I find that's a really helpful parenting tool too because, or very helpful relationship tool too, because it can put you both acknowledging that there's something you're working on together, but there's still, it's not you, it's not, yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (25:12)
A team, yeah. attacking the person.
Dave Inglis (25:17)
it, then.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (25:18)
Yeah, exactly.
Dave Inglis (25:19)
When you bring up the notion of team, I immediately start to think like, that we've worked as a team to try and improve our conflict skills? And one of the things that I, looking back on, definitely can see quite clearly is a lot of times with us, and I'm sure this is, I know this is with every other relationship too, more often than not, it was the nonverbal cues and gestures that
would happen so quickly and so unconsciously that it would immediately throw either of us into like a predetermined understanding of what somebody is thinking or doing. And we have worked really well together as a team, I think, to help understand by looking back at those experiences, like what is the thing that I do that immediately sets you off like that? And realizing through that, like for me, I know, and I say things like absolutes, like always or never.
It's one of those things that I've learned you're very sensitive to that I, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, it's not absolutely always, but you know what I mean? It's like most of the time, but for you, you're like, well, no, you said always. And so always is always, right? And I just use that as a silly example because it could be a look, it could be a gesture, it could be a sound, it could be like, there's so many things that aren't verbal that I think.
We've worked as a team to uncover what those are. And by understanding what those are, we've been able to smooth out, I think, some of those friction points that a lot of times, I think, in relationship, we don't realize have the fucking impact that they do. Right?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (26:56)
And something I think I could get better at, I think most people could get better at is instead of trying to smooth them out as if they shouldn't happen, just like giving people a little more patience in the journey, even of a conversation. Like I can say something to Dave and I instantly know what he thinks of what I've said. And he knows the same for me. So sometimes conflict, old historical conflict comes from like,
you're doing that thing again. I know, you know, you'll bring up something about one of the kids, Dave, and you can see in my face that I don't disagree, I don't agree with that point. And then you're instantly into the mode of like, you're gonna defend the kids and you're gonna be not on my side on this conflict. And then it just kind of spirals without any real even engagement from me, other than the fact that we've been together long enough that you know what I'm thinking and vice versa. It happens both ways, right?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (27:24)
Mmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (27:51)
I also think there is something everybody could do a little bit better in relationship is just allow the person to have their emotional journey through the conversation and their immediate reactions without assuming that that's where they're a to land at the end of the conversation. I can have my immediate reaction to want to defend the kids, but then I can also loop in all the other information. Okay.
Dave Inglis (28:06)
Hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (28:15)
I'm trying not to immediately do that. What does Dave have to say? Okay, I'm trying to just be present and listening to his side, I can have that, but if already the conversation has taken a turn to conflict, because you can sense that my first reaction is the one you don't like, that's hard too, right? So I think, again, it's like that patience, allowing people to have a journey through a conversation that you don't need to respond to at every moment, Just being kind of curious and watching them.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (28:38)
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (28:43)
go through their journey too in the conversation.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (28:45)
Yeah. when you're in a long -term relationship, you kind of know it. You think you know each other so well. So you assume the assumption is very dangerous. I think Dave and I, even when I share some of my personal experience, I realize it's like our ability to almost have a third eye to look at ourselves through our reaction and our assumption and even judgment.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (28:53)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (29:11)
of intimate partner and assume that's what they mean, that's what they, but not realizing, I think, Dave, we talked about, we go through different iterations of our relationship and the other person is growing, I'm growing or am I allowing that space for even growth or the ability to recognize the growth, the change is so important. yeah, assumption we do, especially the longer you are together, the more we assume.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (29:18)
Right?
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (29:39)
great reminder.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (29:39)
Yes, the story gets hardwired. It's kind of back to the original story you shared about, it's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see, is that sometimes we see our partners through a certain lens and it's so difficult for them to get themselves out of that story because our story is so powerful about them. Everything, every example, and I think you share this Dave really well in your book, everything starts to validate.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (29:46)
Mm -hmm. What do you see?
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (30:06)
So you only see the things that validate what your brain wants to believe, which is this one narrative and path instead of being able to allow the space for change or just a different story to be true too
Dave Inglis (30:20)
Yeah, and you spoke to like, I believe one of my greatest strengths over the years has been reflecting on my behavior. I think that's definitely one of the, I would say, superpowers that I bring to our relationship is that I'm, albeit not maybe great when the water blows, when I do leave, I do really think about it. And I really do come back, like you said, Jen, with a...
an upgraded perspective an ability to take some ownership. And one of the questions that I often ask in that space when I'm alone to myself is like, could it be possible something else is a?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (30:48)
Mm -hmm.
Dave Inglis (30:56)
Could it be possible there's a different way of describing this? And that to me by just opening up multiple possibilities and being able to almost like a mad lib, like let's write the story again, but just differently, right? Is a way that I think opens up the door and the wedge for different stories to be possible there, right? And that's just one that's always kind of been with me when I take space and try and...
look at like, what have I given here? What am I taking here? And what pain and trouble am I causing here? Right? And it could, and through that, it could it be possible that my original story about what this is meaning or what's taking place is expired, is old, if it's right, right? But just inviting the possibility, I think is an important piece, like you said, Jen, to those stories. Cause at the end of the day, like I think part of being in partnership is to create the conditions where our partner can.
do whatever they want to do as far as becoming who they want to become, right? And like leading into that. And I think what you're highlighting really well, Jen, is sometimes while our intentions are there, when we get under stress, we can be really good as partners of keeping our partners where they were instead of helping them get to where they want to go, right?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (32:07)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (32:09)
Yeah. I think a big part of that, and I feel like divorce is a really great example of this. often sometimes our stories are protecting, they're like wrapped around something painful that we don't want to let go of, right? So many people's story about their divorce is often like, my partner's a horrible person, they did all these things to me. But it's like, it's wrapped around the pain of
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (32:22)
So too.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (32:37)
whatever has transpired and whatever those things are on our own side of that story too. So I think sometimes when we have those really hard, rigid stories about our partners, they're actually like a protective mechanism for ourselves And I think Dave, like in your book, I think you share some of this too, but that story you had about me at that time when Will was a baby and me not contributing enough or...
whatever that story was, was also very much protecting you from some of the deeper layers that you didn't want to deal with at that time, right? Or that you were hard for you to look at in the mirror. So that story is an easier way to just put that away somewhere you don't have to look at it. So I often, I take great care when unraveling people's stories because underneath them there's often some pain that needs to be.
dealt with and processed too
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (33:31)
Yeah, that's so true. So when I get in touch with my clients a through divorce, and by myself included and not realizing is that I was holding a lot of pain bodies within me. as you were talking, I was like, yeah, so through the divorce settlement journey, right, because it's high conflict, it couldn't be higher the conflict. And we
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (33:44)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (33:54)
tend to reinforce the negative stories about the other person. I mean, how could we not because the conflicts are so high. it's important to step back and to have someone whether it's mediator, your lawyer or coach to really challenge you, just like Dave did to have some space and asking you is it true? Is it absolutely true? Or whatever questions we're asking to challenge our assumptions or our old stories about that person, which is very hard during this time.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (33:59)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (34:22)
but can also be really helpful. If during your divorce you couldn't have that space to do that, definitely take some time to do that post -divorce because that will help your next relationship and if you choose to get into that, yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (34:23)
this.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you don't want to carry those with you. And many people do for a long time.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (34:39)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. And...
Yeah, and when we get through the same cycle and wondering, right, how and why, and that's why our second marriage divorce rate is even higher now, maybe, I don't know, 70, 80%. So do the work now so that we don't get to that point. And also another thing is that I think Dave's work and myself is that really the work is focusing on ourselves rather than externally pointing finger to the other party because whatever the other party did or
you know, is to a doing, it doesn't matter, is that what do you want? What kind of life do you want it to lead? And what kind of family do you want it to lead?
Dave Inglis (35:20)
Yeah, and I think like the ability to turn within a little bit and to kind of ask yourself like what's really a on here in those moments, what's the story that I have? Where did that come from? I think it's important, the role of timing on that, right? And being really quick to do that. What I mean is like, you ever had a kid with a cough?
Bad cough, and then you finally bring him to the doctor and the cough's gone.
You know how fucking annoying that is? Like you book the appointment because like you have the symptoms and all of a sudden you get to the doctor and like there's no fucking symptoms. But I swear to God his throat hurt yesterday. Can we still do that? Right? Like it's one of those where like when the pain is there and being...
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (36:02)
Weirdly that happens like 50 % of the time in pediatric visits. Parents like, I swear, this kid.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (36:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They get sick on a Saturday when the doctors are off, right? And then Monday, you got the perfect fine. Can you give me that anti -pink juice, antibiotics? No, you don't need it. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Inglis (36:05)
Yeah. I promise you.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (36:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, prescribe it because tomorrow it's a to be back once we leave this office. But anyway, sorry, I know it's an allergy day, but I just wanted to like validate that that is a very real thing that happens in pediatric visits. It is the bane of many parents existence. my gosh. Yeah.
Dave Inglis (36:26)
I know.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (36:32)
with kids all the time. Yeah.
Dave Inglis (36:35)
and so frustrating is because like this symptom is no longer presenting itself, which is making it more or less hearsay. And it becomes more difficult to have a like objective, very clear and like present moment understanding of what's a on. And the types of things in the way that we behave, the way that I behave when I'm under stress in my story, be it a true or more often than not a false one kind of coming through that I'm projecting on a situation.
It's really difficult to evaluate that thoughtfully and to really be honest around like, what am I actually feeling about you right now? Where, like, how do I actually feel about you? What actually happened? Like there's a window where the wire is live. Like now is the time to actually look at that. And I often say that use pain as a tool. Don't wait for the pain to go away. Like don't wait to go see the doctor when you're not in anymore.
Some of my favorite things to receive are like the Wednesday night phone calls at 7pm from one of my clients who is just totally blown out going for the walk.
Going for the walk. And I love it is because it's not because I don't love it because it's happening at 7 p and I should be hanging out and want to be hanging out with my family. I love it because it is real time. It's like the symptom is right there. We can we can examine it right in that moment. And I just see that one's ability to really connect with it, to understand it is so much deeper when it is live, real happening. And we have the courage to if not ask our partner.
ask somebody else, be the best friend, be the coach, be the trusted partner in your life, to say, can you sit with me and talk about this with me right now? Right? As it's actually happening. I think that's such an important piece. Such an important piece.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (38:15)
I think it's also relevant and I've been working through some really internal turmoil in the past week and I've been checking in with Dave to keeping him updated but also just even allowing myself to sit in it and so discomfortable, so discomfortable and lots of...
tears and reflection and frustration, like, why can't I pull myself out of it? And just really allowing that timing to come and also reaching out to some trusted advisors. I just want to just add this quote here.
in your book in this part about conflict. I think we talked a lot about intention, self -awareness, and you said "change comes from choice and choice comes from conflicts" And it really tie up well with what we've been talking about. And I love that it's a choice that we can make. How do we repair conflicts
with our intimate partners and other people in our life, but also within ourselves. So thank you for sharing. And the next question I told Dave, it came through my silent meditation retreat on Saturday. And I really wanted to ask is, you two are both very busy. You have three children.
Dave Inglis (39:24)
Hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (39:40)
Jen is a doctor. She also has her business and Dave and you too you're doing different ventures. So how do we balance our identity of self and our identity in this intimate partnership or this family? So there are different aspects of it, right?
independent humans, because you both have your identity. And we're also depend dependent, like there is a tech glitch, Dave is gonna show up. We're also interdependent to do things together with the kids or something else. And want to
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (40:32)
Hehehe
You
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (40:21)
in your relationship, how do you balance all of these pieces of being yourself and your role in the family between being independent, dependent and interdependent?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (40:33)
Sorry, Dave, do you mind if I jump in first here? You look like you're taking a breath to speak. Just breathing. OK, good. Good news.
Dave Inglis (40:36)
Fire away, I'd be...
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (40:39)
you
Dave Inglis (40:40)
No, just surviving. Just surviving. Just breathing.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (40:43)
This lengthy question from Lisa just breathing through.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (40:49)
No, yeah, I think mine is a very not a lengthy answer to this. And this has definitely been an evolution over the last little while for me is that I think we have a false sense of identity as if it's this stable thing. I am like this, I am like this, you know, this is who I am in relationship and
Really, in reality, it's changing all the time, day to day, moment to moment, and there needs to be room for identity to change, right? So when I am struggling the most with all the pieces in my life, what I try to do is to get more in the moment with whatever it is that I'm doing at that time. So if I'm with Dave, I try to really just be there in that moment in my identity as like a connected person.
to him or if I'm playing tennis and I'm anxious and I'm thinking about some conflict I had earlier with the teenagers or something, you know, I'm just like, right now, I'm just a tennis player. I'm just somebody who likes to learn tennis. And I try to like go back to that moment to moment identity versus this much bigger picture of identity that feels very, can feel very complex, especially when things are busy.
When things aren't very busy and there's a lot of time for reflection, it feels different. But when life is really busy and there's a lot of moving pieces, I try to just try to get more into the moment is how I balance the different pieces of my identity. Like when I'm changing hats now and I need to like let that piece go and now be in this piece.
Dave Inglis (42:27)
Yeah, that's really interesting, Jen, especially at a personal level, how you navigate that. I was thinking about the question of it differently more, like you and I, how do we continue to support one another to have the capacity to pursue our individual vocations and interests, be them business or otherwise?
and also fulfill our commitments to our children and to ourselves at a level that we're proud of and that we truthfully expect of from each other, right? To me, I think, and for us, I'm sure the answers to this would have changed and does always change over time, but, you know, in my book, I talk about what does winning mean? And fundamentally, it's like, what is really important to us? What do we believe in? And I think that's something in a relationship that
can very easily be like implied that we get it. You kind of highlighted this Lisa with your story right at the beginning of our time together with your partner and living abroad and wanting to have a different lifestyle, right? It's easy especially when we have the like honeymoon phase of a relationship or courting one another and we're dreaming and we're sharing those types of things to think that that just continues and is gonna remain steadfast about a relationship, right? But context is always changing. And so would say that one,
foundational piece that we've agreed on very explicitly from the time that we got together was that our own like sovereignty as individuals really matters and is important. Right? And like being able to like fundamentally believe that like something that we are committed to is making sure that each of us are supported to go and pursue the things that are calling us. And even right now, I would say that I'm more in a
phase of my life where am maybe disproportionately in more of an exploration mode than Jen is right now in some of those areas. Right? but we know that's something we both believe in and, and support each other in, right? Just like other kinds of values, if you will, that are like kind of household values for, for how we think about or make decisions on those types of things. And I think that's important because when it comes down to, you know, I think back to June, this last month, it just passed away, passed by rather.
I was gone for probably 15 days there on work.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (44:43)
Yeah.
Dave Inglis (44:49)
At the beginning beginning that, I also was away for an additional seven days on a retreat, which has nothing to do with it. it. I'm earning any money when I'm gone. I mean, I can make the argument that I'm going to a more calm and a better parent and a better partner when I come home from a retreat. But truthfully, I'm doing this to explore my own interest and spirit and what that looks like for me. And it's something that's very unique to me.
That's not a deal breaker or a type of conversation that we fight around or argue about when it comes up because we've already predetermined that we support each other in those types of things. So by kind of making agreements around what is important to us upfront before actually getting into the week or the month or what's kind of happening, I think those things starts to act as like almost design constraints and we expect those things to be there. And it's like, okay, it's more about how do we, how might we make that happen instead of
not again, Like something like that and the full support that we offer each other, I think is something that we, yeah, predetermine on that. And I think that's a principle that's really worked well for us. It's just in principle taking a prehab approach to some of these types of things. Create mechanisms that spark these types of conversations informally or formally so that when the pipes burst or when you're actually in real life.
You've already kind of gone the same page for some of these things that sometimes can seem phony and silly like values in a company on the wall. They're very different when your family values and the big things that you've agreed on really matter to how you want to live your life together. So I'd say that's how we also make it work a little bit at a family level is just always talking about what those things are now. And especially when we go through transitions, like even the summer here at Nana's and next year in Spain. Are those things still the same things?
or how they changed. Those are really great things to be talking about.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (46:40)
the question I usually ask myself that really comes down to is, like, am I helping Dave live his best life? As a partner, that I think is the quality that we're both committed to is not changing Dave to live our best life, but like, am I helping Dave live his best life in the definition of that for him? And, likewise, is he doing the same for me?
Personally, the hardest part of that for me is that I'm not as good at asking for my own things. Dave is very good at being like, I wanna go to this retreat, this is important to me and then I'm gonna be traveling for work and you can make that work, right? I'm less good at being like, now I wanna do this and now I wanna do this and can you cover me on all these things? So one of the things that I've started doing, I heard a great speaker talking about
manifesting the life that you want. And one of the components that he talked about was imagining that giving and receiving is a guitar string and it needs to be perfectly in tune in order to be able to manifest what you want. And you need to be constantly thinking about pulling that guitar string into perfect tune. So most mornings I'll do a meditation where I really check in with myself, am I giving, am I receiving, is that string?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (47:35)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (48:01)
actually in tune or am I taking a lot more than I'm giving? Or do I feel like I'm giving a lot more than I'm taking because those pieces need to align? So that's been a simple way for me to just make sure that I'm asking for myself and giving in a way that is like in tune in our relationship. Otherwise, those are the easy spots for resentment to start to build or you start to feel like I'm doing everything you're off doing your own life.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (48:22)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (48:30)
you have to, that has to be in balance. And so that's been super helpful for me to just like a simple daily check -in point to really think about how I'm giving and receiving and whether that feels like it's tuned.
Dave Inglis (48:45)
I love that, Jen. And I like how it kind of illustrates the giving and taking the two sides of that coin of, am I helping Dave live his best life? And am I helping myself live mine? Right? And where do we feel on that? There's a big difference between a good giver and a doormat giver, right? And I think especially in a context of a family, when you have kids watching these types of things,
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (49:03)
Mmm.
Dave Inglis (49:10)
Yeah, we could talk about what we want to leave our kids, like in a will or in a trust and all those types of things. But I think what you and I are definitely on the same page around is what type of kids do we want to leave? Right. I want to leave kids who are really good givers and who are also able to create the conditions for themselves to be able to live a life that brings them into an experience of themselves that is contagious for others and is positive for others and allows them to be an example of what's possible that
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (49:22)
Mm.
Dave Inglis (49:40)
makes a positive impact in wherever they're living just because of who they are, right? And that's if we're not taking for ourselves and we're just over giving. And for some people, it's the opposite. They're taking way too much and not giving at all. I just love those two questions like you highlighted there, Jen. Am I helping Dave with his best life? And am I helping myself, right? In that dynamic.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (50:01)
Lisa that really interestingly comes back to your point about turning in and like the things that you can do for yourself versus externalizing everything. There was a time when I could easily have externalized that onto Dave, right? Like I'm trying to, I'm helping you live your best life. Look at all the things I'm doing for you. How are you helping me do something different, Dave? But truthfully, I've never ever found that to be an effective strategy, even though I've tried it many times, you know.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (50:10)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (50:31)
Always what's been the most effective is when I actually tune into my own power and my own choice. So, the experience that Dave and I had when we had Will and we were in a lot of conflict, like near divorce level of conflict. One of the things, the thing that changed the trajectory of our relationship was a moment that I had when I was like 18 months postpartum, constantly trying to convince Dave and show him.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (50:35)
turning in. Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (51:00)
how he was treating me and how he wasn't seeing what I was doing. And like, it was, I felt like I was con, we were both just constantly, you're doing it like this. Can't you see, change what you're doing. Eventually, one day I just said, you know what? I don't want to be this person anymore. I'm done with this person. I'm done with this stage of life. I'm not gonna change our relationship by convincing Dave to do something different so that I feel like more attracted to him or whatever. I'm only gonna change myself.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (51:02)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (51:28)
And who do I want to be? I want to be a person who is growing in my business. I want to be a person who is enthusiastic and happy. I want to be a person who loves sex again. I want to be, and I'm just a to be those things. And I started like literally one day, I was like, nope, okay. I'm just that person now. I'm not a to be this person anymore. And I just made a choice. And after a week, Dave was like, well, this is really nice, but this isn't a to last. And I was like, no, you don't know because
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (51:55)
You
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (51:59)
I tapped into the power that I had to be who I want to be. And then Dave just responded in kind and he changed. Like within a month, we were like two different people. It was the craziest transition I've ever experienced or understanding of what it means to be in your own personal power and stop saying like, well, I don't really want to have sex because I don't like how you're treating me. You're too angry. Like that's not, that's not attractive. So we're just a to carry on as we're.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (52:01)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (52:27)
as we were, just being like, no, that's it. Different person now. Here we go. And wouldn't you say, Dave, that was like, it was very interesting to watch what power that has to affect somebody around you. You change your energy and the people around you have to respond differently. They can't stay the way they were because it's not the same interaction anymore.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (52:31)
my god.
Dave Inglis (52:46)
Yeah, think fundamentally it's a very good applied example of the choice that we have of, have, do, be. We have no more anger, great. So then we can do these things and we can have sex more frequently and then we can be in this type of relationship or I can be this type of person, right? And instead of like waiting to have those types of things in order to be that type of person, you made the choice just to fucking
be that tomorrow, right? Which seems so simple, but it's not. Like it's not, and it is at the same time. Like I think we all have this quality in ourselves to be able to, much like the alter ego, like I talk about in the book, right? Enclose cognition with kids. Great research where they had kids go and do these puzzles and they would be testing to see their tenacity and their persistence.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (53:22)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dave Inglis (53:43)
And the trick was, is there was no actual solve to the puzzle, the bastards, right? So they just had the kids continue to put the effort and they were timing them. As soon as they put on a scientist lab coat, right? Or a police officer or a superhero outfit, immediately they invoke the cognition or the way of being of somebody else. And I think what that just reminds me is we all have the ability to tap into different qualities that are always there and...
Even though in the relationship may make it difficult to pull those out because of resentment and frustration, fundamentally we're giving away power when we allow that to be the excuse. And we take back power, we make the choice to be able to be that person because that's who we want to be. And I think what's really interesting here, Jen, is by you making that choice, it forced me to make a choice. I made what I believe was the right positive choice in that I met you there because if I didn't,
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (54:09)
Mm.
Dave Inglis (54:33)
that would have just put our relationship on a different pathway. And I'm a firm believer that like, it would have been the total right move for you to do that for you because that's how you want to live, that's who you want to be. And if I wasn't willing to be able to come along with that, great. That is a wonderful choice that has forced a bigger decision in our relationship together of should we stay or should we go? And that's fine. That's great. That's a good decision to be able to get to.
but one that's not available when we're like dicking around and trying to compensate and trying to change other people, right? Like it's an empowering position to be in when you make that choice and you now allow somebody else to make their own choice rather than trying to convince them to make a choice, right?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (55:13)
Yeah, and I think maybe that's why those moments are so hard to come to, because you do have to get to the point where you say, this is who I want to be with or without you, and I'm going to be that person. if you don't come along with me, then I've made the decision before I've made the decision that I'm going to live this life now. so that, I think, is... Sorry, go ahead, Lisa.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (55:50)
Yep.
Yeah,
No, sorry, I just say, say, so good. I'm just saying, Haleluya It's so powerful. So powerful. When you come with that kind of energy. It's like this is I made my choice. You can come along or not. I will be at peace. Because I've made my choice. And I've whether you're in this divorce stage, and you're still very painful, hoping the other person
Dave Inglis (55:40)
Hahaha
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (55:41)
I'm sorry.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (56:03)
really ultimately when you're in conflict during that stage, like see you and recognize you and the other person refused to. And, or I have clients who are in that stage. Dave, we talk about, should I stay or should I leave? Because my marriage has been on autopilot. There is no really intimacy. I don't feel loved. Right. And a lot of people still, we talk about externally pointing finger, like if he changes, only if she does this, you know, we will be different.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (56:10)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (56:32)
making that choice, like, I don't care if you change or not, because I cannot change you. I realized that the only person that can change is myself. And that's really powerful. And no matter what happens, you know that you will be fine. I do want to ask this question because it seems like you just made that decision is like, bang! it happened. And I can totally understand how that energy shift impact influence Dave.
to really, yeah, Dave, now you have a choice. First, he has questions like, huh, is this going to last? Second, he said, and then when he realized this is real, he has decided to meet you. So for a lot of people, they're in that stage. They know it's not working. They want to change. They want to make that shift, but they don't know how. And how did you just, it sounds like it's like Bang Jen is a to change and Jen change. So.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (57:10)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (57:26)
What advice do you give people in that kind of still not sure stage, but there is an inkling voice that they know is not working.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (57:38)
Yeah, I think sometimes, this is more maybe on the female side, but I'm sure men experience this too. But sometimes part of it is stepping back and thinking about who do I want to be if this relationship doesn't work out? Who am I? Like, what are the qualities? If I could start fresh, what would I do and what would I not do? Would I have allowed, you know, do I want to be in another relationship where I'm constantly asking?
if everything's okay, or would that just be it? No, like I'm done with that. Would I be a person who, right? And then imagining what that person is, that person from your like best power and best self, I think that is part of the first step is just imagining if this relationship does not continue, who do I want to be a forward? Who am I? What pieces of me are lost? Where is my power? And then,
actioning those things every day. Like that it's about action before thinking too, I think. So it's like, what would that person do? Right now, I don't even know what to do because I'm lost in this relationship and I'm constantly consumed on this side. But what would that person do? they would, go into their husband's office at noon and see if they want to have a, you know, a quickie or something, right? Like what are the action steps?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (58:58)
Yep. Yep.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (59:01)
that person that you envision yourself to be in your strongest self, what would they do, right? they would probably ignore, yeah, ignore the fact that their husbands upset and go and play tennis, because they want to. And because that person would make their own choices and they wouldn't be dictated constantly thinking, what does he want me to do? What won't upset him? I think those things, and then you just have to do them.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (59:05)
Yeah, alignment.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (59:25)
Like start to action them before you even feel them to be real in your body. Action precedes thinking.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (59:25)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dave Inglis (59:32)
What I think what's interesting is, is like the example of obviously when I go to tennis, instead of sitting here trying to convince my partner to, you know, to give up on this or to change their perspective, I'm just a to go and do me. That's a great example of like, it's pretty clear to go and do it, but most people still wouldn't. And I think at the core of that is this worry that like, if I, what do you worry would happen if you went to go and play tennis? And I think that's an important piece to kind of get to is like,
What am I projecting out? Right? For example, maybe you're worried that the argument is a to get worse if you just leave. And it's going a take lot longer. Okay, so if you're worried about that, what that means is that you're committed to being somebody who can repair conflict quickly or doesn't have much conflict at all. The bigger assumption here is if you go and take space for yourself, that it's going to a conflicts worse. Well, that's a pretty big assumption. So to your point of going to a it, fuck.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:00:15)
sure.
Dave Inglis (1:00:30)
Go and play tennis and see if that comes true.
Don't actually place a small bet. So I think sometimes there's this, like, it's important to frame that doing piece as like, it's an experiment. I already know what's gonna happen if I stay. I know what's gonna happen if I stay. I've been in that movie before. And I think that's where a lot of people have an opportunity to actually experience something different, is by not making it as a choice of, from now on, I'm always gonna go and play tennis, and I'm just leaving any argument that we have here. It's no, what are my words gonna happen? Okay.
I'm a to go and do it anyway and see if it comes true. Because over time, I think what starts to happen is that grip starts to loosen itself up a little bit. And we start to, by after a to tennis once or twice, we realize, wow, my worst case scenario didn't actually come to fruition. Actually, when I gave Dave space, it was really great. As soon as I came home, I got a great workout in and he actually came to me with his perspective now that I had left on that. And wow, this is actually better than I thought it was. But most people don't actually have the experience of a to do it.
Right? And I think framing it as just like, it's a bet. It's a small bet. It's an experiment. Not to trivialize the intensity of the emotion that sometimes we're met around that, but I think we have to experience that. I really do.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:01:39)
Yeah. And, and to add to that, sometimes you get exactly what you expected, but suddenly I'm a person who's okay with you being uncomfortable or irritable. And that's not a to throw off my whole day, right? Like that it's a choice. That is a choice too, to be like, I'm, I'm making this choice for myself and now I'm a to push into it a little more and I'm a to see what happens if instead of trying to repair this right away, I just go and
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:01:53)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:02:06)
get my work done and then I go pick up the kids and I just move on. And I just allow you to be in whatever state you're bothered or not, you know? Like sometimes it's exactly what you expect, but it's the reaction to that expectation that has created this loop in your relationship too, that it's like, this is always what happens. I get powerful and I go do what I want, but then you're upset and then I come back and I'm like, no.
Dave Inglis (1:02:23)
Right.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:02:32)
Now you're upset, now I have to fix this. This is way more work. I should have just not gone to tennis in the first place, because now this is a huge output for me instead of something fun. But there is other alternatives. There is other options there too, where you can choose to be a person who's like, you know what? That's you. That's how you're feeling. And okay, I'm not feeling like that. I'm gonna go over here.
Dave Inglis (1:02:54)
Yeah, and I think you have a really good ability, Jen, to be able to be rather introspective on those types of things on your own. And when I think about Lisa's question here, I think any changes made around like how I want to be, I've typically approached them a bit differently. You know, if I think back to one of the challenges we were having and how we were dealing with thirds, in particular, our daughter at one point in time years ago, and you'll remember that I had a pretty strong opinion that I was right.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:02:54)
Mmm.
Dave Inglis (1:03:22)
And I wasn't willing to back down on it. And where we had come to was, I remember we brought up Jason Gaddis from the relationship school and we took him out for dinner. And I remember after having a cocktail and sitting down with him, I said, okay, so think I'm right on this. Can you please prove me wrong or show me where I think I'm wrong on this? And
I'm just sharing this as an alternative way of looking at how I've come to making some of these changes is you're very good at introspectively kind of getting there on your own. I, for whatever reason, need to be challenged or have an outside perspective. And since the dynamic is typically between me and you, or if it was between me and Lisa, as an example, I don't think getting that perspective from the person I'm in an argument with is gonna be the best way to get it. I need to get it from somewhere else.
So I think sometimes if you're feeling like I was kind of giving up on something or compromising something or holding on maybe too tightly to something and wanting something to be different, there's a lot of value for me in being able to say, okay, can we bring somebody who has no skin in this game in? And can you help me see what I'm not seeing?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:04:17)
Bye!
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:04:31)
100%. Yep.
Dave Inglis (1:04:31)
Right? And I was blown away by like how quick that third party perspective can help not just me, but also you see the situation differently as well. Right? Again, inviting different possibilities or variation of the story that we're collectively telling about that moment. And I think whether it's a through divorce or trying to build skills in how you repair conflict in a
you know, outstanding relationship that you have, you're trying to get better at, bringing in somebody else is not a permanent decision. It can be something that's for a short period of time, but it will collapse time, right? It will accelerate your ability to, you know, for Jen and I, we probably have, I don't even want to think about it, actually. I was a to say, what, like 50 more years together, hopefully, or 60 more years together in our life. I want to experience 55 or 60 of those years, 59 of those years.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:05:13)
Mm -hmm.
Dave Inglis (1:05:26)
in the healthiest possible state with you as it relates to the way we navigate those moments. So why wouldn't we bring somebody in to help us collapse time? Same thing for you, you know, Lisa, you have somebody go through divorce, you're reinventing yourself after that. I met Jen two years into her reinvention after being with her first husband.
Wouldn't you want to live in that state of reinvention and clarity for a lot longer than taking 10 years to figure it out on your own? Like there's something really magical about that. And Jen, you're so good at doing it on your own. I struggle with that as reflective as I can be. And for me, I find what helps me get to these, wow, I need to change that, really is done quite well when I can bring in somebody else and say, here's where I think I'm right. I'm very certain.
please challenge me on this. And I think actively seeking that is also a really great signal to you as my partner to say, I'm willing to change, but I also am pretty strongly opinionated on this and that's okay too. I believe, I think that's okay too, but it's a signal that I'm willing to be a student of this. I'm willing to entertain a different perspective and change my mind.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:06:27)
I love both your sharing and Jen's experiment, but also keep your expectation in check if the other person doesn't meet where you want to experiment. But Dave is like, have that third party perspective for him is helping him to see what he's missing. And as you were talking about right or wrong, Dave, I actually had this conversation and also had a lot of reflection.
Dave Inglis (1:06:39)
Well said.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:06:54)
for my marriage is that I was so wanting everything to be like, prove I am right. And in the end, I lost my marriage. So what the fuck is the point of being right? If that's what I get, this morning when I dropped my son and at his camp, he kind of got a little bit agitated by me asking questions. He was like, you know.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:07:12)
Ha ha.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:07:18)
I'm right, it's checking table is there, you know? And I had a conversation with him, he's like, honey, you know, what's the point that you're giving me this attitude even if you're right? I'm not trying to argue with you whether you're right or wrong. It's the point I wanna bring it to him. It's like the point is like, you know, if being right damage our relationship, you know, what's the point? Why wouldn't we do the inspection or having a third party coming to help us?
Dave Inglis (1:07:47)
Yeah, I think it's a good point you make around like about being right. And I think the the consequence of being right is that the person you were arguing against is now wrong.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:07:47)
So that's a big lesson.
Dave Inglis (1:07:57)
And now in your home, I often, I can really relate to what you're saying because I'm somebody who likes to be right. And I feel like I am in a lot of moments, right? And what I've realized is when I'm fighting to be right, what happens is, is now my home is filled with people who have been defeated.
And that is not the type of home that I want others to be able to experience. That is not the home that I want to be associated with my family name. A home filled with people who have been defeated. No. So would you rather be rich or right? Maybe not in the capital sense, rich, rich in intimacy, rich in connection, rich in trust, right? All these really important pieces. But I think that is something we often forget is that like that is the consequence of being right. The consequence of being right is that you have a house filled with people who have been defeated.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:08:36)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:08:39)
It's a really interesting way to put it, but very true.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:08:42)
Yeah. And which brings me, the first time I approached Dave, you know, we had this really, I think both of us cried and you told me that Lisa, I'm doing this work with you, but for your kids. I think it just, yeah. And so important.
Dave Inglis (1:08:58)
I remember that. I remember that. Yeah, wow. That brings you back. Yeah. Yeah, I remember saying to you, Lisa, if we're a to do this work, I need you to know I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for your kids. So I'm a to, we're a to have moments where it's a to feel like I'm not working for you. But that I'm, we're approaching this where I'm actually working for your kids. Yeah.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:09:11)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:09:16)
Hehe.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:09:16)
Mm -hmm.
I'm just saying it's so important, the legacy we want to leave behind. And maybe in this case, you don't have kids, but for the people around you, and how do you want them to remember you? And I also want to just share how I implement some of the tools that you mentioned in this book. You talked about family boot camp. I was like, I'm a sin gle mom, my kids are too young.
My mom doesn't speak English. How do I do that? But what I did was I did a check -in with my son. I was like, he's nine years old. I can do that with him. Didn't know how it would go. I was just like, hey, you know, how are you doing? And we had a really good chat and he blew me away. He said, you know, mom, I think we're thriving. I was like, are we? You know, that's the goal that I...
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:10:10)
Hahaha!
Dave Inglis (1:10:10)
Hahaha!
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:10:13)
when I know when everything fell apart, right? it was very sudden that he, you know, my ex said I don't want it. And then shortly after my daughter was born that he decided to disconnect fully with the kids as well. It's obviously a big trauma. So one thing that I even though I was pregnant, I was just a mess that once I got some strength and I told my son at the time was five or six, I said, hey,
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:10:13)
so cute.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:10:40)
We're not only going to survive this, we're going to thrive. And you never know what message sticks, right? And this is here four years later. He said, you know, we're thriving and I'm really enjoying life and this and so funny. This is what he surprised me. I said, great. We had a great chat. And he checked in with me. He's like, hey, how are you doing? I was telling him about the things I'm doing. Like usually I wouldn't tell him. He was like,
Dave Inglis (1:10:46)
right?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:11:03)
He was like, ooh. And in the end, this is the surprising part. I said, hey, Oliver, I like to do this check-in with you often, like weekly if possible. And he said, well, I think that's too frequent. Let's do it every two weeks. I'm sharing this is just like once you start doing this, whatever Dave is introducing you, you can grab this book anywhere. To Chief Family Officer that you'll be surprised to, like Jen said.
how the other people in your life can meet you in your family. So that's what I wanted to share and how meaningful and important this work is to lead your family and to always look within of ourselves. wanna thank you both for sharing so truthfully and vulnerably. And before we wrap up, so
that we didn't cover, you really want to send the message to people who are maybe struggling in their intimate relationship, whether it's a long -term relationship or a marriage or maybe they're in the process of divorce.
Dave Inglis (1:12:14)
Hmm, Jen anything from you?
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:12:18)
Well, I just wanted to say one of the nicest compliments I ever got about parenting was I remember a preschool teacher once said to me, it really seems like your daughter is a participating member of your family. And so I just want to give that compliment to you, Lisa. It really seems like your son is a participating member of your family with a voice and an opinion that he feels comfortable sharing. Like that's that is a high compliment to you as a parent. From the couple perspective.
I feel like we've shared so much, Dave, do you have something that jumps to mind?
Dave Inglis (1:12:49)
I mean, I immediately feel called to start exactly what you did with Lisa. I think one of the really great things that I've had a chance Lisa to witness in you over over years now, having known you is, you know, you model really good student behavior. I was at a cab ride down to the airport a few weeks ago and the taxi driver goes to me, Hey, you're, you're, you're an author on, on families in that. How do I convince my kids to take more ownership?
And I asked him, I was like, well, how do you do it that yourself? He's like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, you have to show your kids what that looks like. Don't tell them that. Right? And I think you're a great example of opening up, being honest with your kids, right? And I think more and more when it comes to these types of topics, and especially since we're talking about like the internal arts of families here, like this is not a science. This is not, you know.
is a simple little math equation. It's very complex and human stuff. And what really required in that space is somebody who models by example and models really good student behavior. And I just see that so much in you. So thank you. And I think that's what I would encourage anybody listening to really just remind themselves about is like, am I modeling the things I'm asking my kids to do or I'm asking my partner to do? And
And making sure that's there and and lastly I would say it's just like there's always going to be Junctures in the journey of a family where you don't know what to do next You all there's others are always going to be there and something that has never failed me in Those moments is just asking what would love do now?
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:14:15)
Hmm.
Dave Inglis (1:14:28)
That to me is a question that always postures me, I think, correctly or resets me in those moments when things are difficult. And so that would be a closing comment for me is just like wherever you are in your journey as you're listening, is just asking that very sincerely, you know, what would love do now? What would the next right thing be if love were to answer that question? And I think that's a really great place to set as a foundation of which we can always go back to when things seem unclear and where we're going next.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:14:59)
Thank you so much.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:15:00)
of what I want to share just to wrap up to kind of adding on to that Dave. I think everything we've talked about today required these moments of awareness where something shifts in the way that you're thinking that allows for change, that allows for proactive conversations, whatever it is. what I would say is that you don't know what you don't know until you put yourself in situations to learn and grow.
Dave Inglis (1:15:03)
Hmm
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:15:22)
Mm.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:15:28)
often you feel you're right, but you don't know what you don't know. You can't know what hasn't come to you yet. So picking up a book like Dave's book, working with a coach, even if you don't know what to work with, just, like Dave said, like, show me, show me where I'm wrong. Cause I'm pretty confident that I'm right. Like whatever it is, anything, talk to friends or people who know who've been through it, whatever it is, like you don't know, be open.
to knowing something that you don't know yet.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:15:58)
I love that. Always choose love and checking with how would you approach this with love, but always checking in with yourself as well. Just being open because with that student mindset, I don't know what I don't know. And let's find out. And yeah. Thank you.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:16:11)
Mm -hmm.
Yep. Yep, exactly.
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:16:19)
so much again. This is so awesome and there are so many moments I just want to be like, yay, so many golden, golden nuggets. And I was like, my clients need to hear this and whoever is in a rough spot in their relationship need to hear this. Thank you again so much. And you can pick up Dave's book, The Officer, anywhere in the bookstore or online. And thank you so much.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:16:20)
Awesome.
Dave Inglis (1:16:26)
Hahaha!
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:16:26)
Yeah
you
Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:16:48)
for your time and to share and we'll see you next time. Thank you.
Dave Inglis (1:16:52)
Sounds great. Thank you for having us, Lisa. Bye for now.
Dr. Jennifer Forristal (1:16:55)
Bye Lisa.